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mheck13
(The Next Level!)
USA
208 Posts |
 Posted - 12/05/2008 : 01:36:15 AM
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I know some people would like to see another hockey team in Indy, Louisville, Lexington, and other cities near Cincinnati. I discovered that Indy will be having a team in the Midwest Hockey League (MWHL). 2009-10 is the first season for the MWHL. Louisville will be a hard sell with the U of L during basketball time. Lexington the same way with U of K. Toledo will have a team next year.
Someone did point out that there should be more teams in the National Conference to compensate for the large number of teams in the American Conference.
Here are some of my ideas: 1) check to see if an ECHL team can exist in both the states of Washington and Oregon. 2) try the same thing with the Dakotas (a pit stop for any team from the east on a road trip to California or worst case Alaska) 3) Make sure that the Reno team will be stable for at least 5 years.
These are just my thoughts. Feel free to share your ideas. |
Cyclones hockey. A championship caliber team in a city of losers. |
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cove291
(The Next Level!)
USA
326 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2008 : 07:58:26 AM
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| How come there are no teams in Canada? |
Sec. 110 Row H
1-19-09 The begining of the biggest mistake in history! |
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Ih8thecyclones
(The Next Level!)
227 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2008 : 08:11:15 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by cove291
How come there are no teams in Canada?
Reign, Ontario |
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tjpavlik
(Been Here Awhile)
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2008 : 08:41:29 AM
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The Reign are in Ontario, California! (East of Anaheim)
The Victoria Salmon Kings are in Victoria, British Columbia which is Canada, but just barely. (North of Seattle)
My guess is that the ECHL will try to be choosy where the next franchises go. Western franchises are not a panacea... both San Diego and Long Beach (California) failed in the last two years.
Travel costs have to be a major concern for most potential franchises. Teams must be able to bus or to draw 5000 a night in order to pay airfare . Michigan has a number of right sized towns for an ECHL franchise but their current economic situation isn't right. Upstate New York might also be good (Ithica, Albany, etc). I can't tell you why southern Ontario (CANADA) hasn't been opened up but Hamilton and Toronto in the AHL only draw 2-3 thousand a night at best, so maybe minor pro hockey isn't a sure thing up there like you would think.
Every team is going to have competition from other events. Las Vegas hangs on because the owners have other interests; i'm not sure Reno would be as lucky (Although the Reno Mustangs does have a ring to it).
Wherever the ECHL lands its next franchises lets hope they use Ontario as a model rather than Augusta or Greenville or Long Beach or Texas or San Diego or Columbia or...well you get the idea.
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Edited by - tjpavlik on 12/05/2008 08:45:39 AM |
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Cyclones1751
(Finally Got A Star!)
USA
51 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2008 : 08:42:57 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ih8thecyclones
quote:
Originally posted by cove291
How come there are no teams in Canada?
Reign, Ontario
That team is called the Ontario Reign in Ontario, California. There is one ECHL team in Canada and it is the Victoria Salmon Kings. |
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tjpavlik
(Been Here Awhile)
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2008 : 10:20:10 AM
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The Washington/Oregon area is pretty much covered by the American Division of the Western Hockey League (WHL). There are teams in Portland, Tri-Cities (Pendleton area) Seattle, Everett and the Bremerton area. I've only seen a few games out there and they draw a little better than we do on most nights.
While the WHL is Major Junior (16-21 year olds) the talent at times exceeds the ECHL. The players are billeted in homes of fans (I know a few fans that would be interested in that at this level... )
Several players go directly from the WHL to the NHL (Ryan Getzlaf, Corey Perry as examples... they only played here because their WHL seasons were over)
The CHL is trying a team in Rapid City, SD this year. It will be interesting to see if they survive. I believe they bus everywhere. The closest teams are in the Denver area which would have to a be a minimum 8 hour ride. A trip to Phoenix or Texas might be 20+ hours one way.
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Edited by - tjpavlik on 12/05/2008 10:23:38 AM |
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Jericho
(The Next Level!)
336 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2008 : 10:47:35 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by mheck13
I know some people would like to see another hockey team in Indy, Louisville, Lexington, and other cities near Cincinnati. I discovered that Indy will be having a team in the Midwest Hockey League (MWHL). 2009-10 is the first season for the MWHL. Louisville will be a hard sell with the U of L during basketball time. Lexington the same way with U of K. Toledo will have a team next year.
The MWHL is a joke. The "league" was suposed to start last year and other than issuing a flury of press releases did nothing else. I doubt that they play one game. |
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HOCKEYgod
(The Next Level!)
207 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2008 : 12:44:35 PM
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@Ih8- Glad you are a Bummers fan;) hehe
I spent some time over the lats couple of days thinking about this & here's my 2 cents- and for what it's worth- it's not much.
This map contains all (or most) Minor League Hockey Franchises & NHL teams in NORTH AMERICA. Thanks to oursportscentral.com & each league site for their information. It is completely possible that I missed a team or two but- I tried.
http://www.aardvarkmap.net/map/VTRJHTFK
Given the placement of teams on the map. (ROUGH PLACEMENT) It's a good thing that the EAST COAST HOCKEY LEAGUE changed it's name to just the ECHL... mainly because there are few teams in the ECHL on the EAST COAST:) That being said- there are a couple of interesting things to check out on this map. Keep in mind that without the proper $ this doesn't mean JACK. And this is just my brain working overtime...
A number of people have been talking about adding Ft. Wayne to the mix in the ECHL. Ft. Wayne leads the IHL in attendance with an average of 8,344. If they were to join the ECHL they would league the league in attendance by close to 2,000 people. The only 2 teams in the IHL that have lower attendance than ECHL teams are Port Huron and Flint. If the IHL teams were to merge with the ECHL or the ECHL absorb the IHL teams, that would add Michigan and Indiana into the mix.
Absorbing the teams from the SPHL would add a collection of teams throughout the south and help teams like the Everblades, Gladiators, and Sea Wolves have some closer competition. You will also find these teams on the map.
OK- REMEMBER- this is all just WHAT IFs and nothing SERIOUS...
The CHL has a pretty strong grip on the middle part of the country- especially the South West. (TEXAS in particular)
Youngstown is pretty much sitting and doing nothing currently- since they were dropped out of the CHL (or whatever really happened)
Indianapolis has the Indiana ICE- (not listed on the map) because of them being in the USHL- which is also comprised of a number of teams throughout the midwest & the plain's states.
Lexington & Louisville have BOTH tried the hockey thing before... neither one of them having much success. I had fun going to Kentucky T-Blades games though back in the day- they were a fun team to watch. The Men O'War didn't do much for me-although it would have been nice for them to stick around. Louisville has had 3 different franchises I believe (Panthers, Riverfrogs, and Icehawks)
All of this being said- I don't see anyone investing in minor league sports with the current state of our economy. The Augusta Lynx weren't the only team on life support this season.
If you look at attendance in the NHL- you'll notice a couple of interesting things as well:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/attendance
Only five teams have an overall attendance increase and EIGHT have increased home attendance so far this season.
OK so, I'm rambling... The issues with expansion are that if you can't maintain the teams that you have, is expansion a good idea? I figured I would throw this all out there for discussion.
I believe that right now I have to think that the ECHL needs to pay close attention to maintaining it's current markets. "DISCUSS"
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elvis77
(Loves To Post!)
1435 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2008 : 1:02:16 PM
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great map hockeygod...i would have to agree that it is key to maintain current markets. i think the league needs to keep on eye on the balance of the divisions and conferences. while it would be great to see fort wayne, or indy join the echl, it's just not practical to add another team to the north division, especially with toledo coming back. also, from the balance perspective, i think you have to keep the franchise in the south or find a home for it out west. someone mentioned reno, which could work with the right ownership group, especially if they could base it on the las vegas model. the trick thing about the west is it's such a large area. i don't know the numbers but i would have to guess the cost to operate a western team is quite a bit higher than it is to operate a team here in the east. that makes it essential to have a fanbase almost before you have a team. i would venture to guess that's why a lot of teams fold so quickly out there. they operate at a loss the first year hoping to grow the fanbase. then, if there is a second year, they hope to break even or turn a small profit, but more often than not close the doors after a year of little or now growth.
as hockeygod alluded to, i think the bigger question is where does it make sense to expand the league to? |
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Edited by - elvis77 on 12/05/2008 1:03:03 PM |
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Jericho
(The Next Level!)
336 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2008 : 3:16:36 PM
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Fort Wayne will never join the ECHL for the same reason they won't join the AHL. They make too much money doing their own thing. They have VERY low expenses and sell quite a few tickets at higher prices than most other AA teams. If you were making that kind of money why would you pay an expansion fee to move to another league? They are probably very close to their revenue celing in the market they are in and are quite happy with that fact.
Indy is a different situation. I can't see pro hockey in Indy surviving without Fort Wayne. The junior team has gutted the formerly strong fan base that the Ice had. They need a rival. In the heyday there were around 1000 away fans in either arenas on away nights. Neither Dayton nor Cincinnati could provide that for Indy. Indy needs a reason to rally around a hockey team again and a 3/4 empty building in a league without Fort Wayne isn't going to do it. Also there is the question of an arena for indy. The Pepsi Coliseum is HORRID. It is the worst building I've ever watched a game in. (Nutter Center is the second worse). If they could get the fieldhouse to drop curtains and do a half house situation similar to how Kemper Arena handled the Outlaws they might be able to do something.
I honestly think that the ECHL needs to concentrate on keeping their existing franchises. They need to define the ECHL as a brand and work with their member clubs in increasing their image in their local communities. We've had 3 teams go belly-up in less than a year. This league needs to think stablility before it thinks of expanding.
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tjpavlik
(Been Here Awhile)
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2008 : 4:03:36 PM
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I would agree with Elvis and Jericho... the ECHL has to keep the current franchises operational before expanding. Given the current economic state of affairs keeping your teams solvent such be job #1.
I thought I heard Columbia would be back next year...renovations to the arena or something like that kept them out this year.
Other than the Everblades and the Stingrays which do quite well I believe all the southern division is living on borrowed time. The domino effect cannot be overlooked; for every team that fails travel costs increase and the revenue decreases for the survivors (Just ask the Sea Wolves). Fans have a hard time supporting a team that they know is failing or about to leave. We've seen that here in Cincinnati far more times than we deserve.
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hrc666
(Loves To Post!)
1363 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2008 : 5:00:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jericho
Fort Wayne will never join the ECHL for the same reason they won't join the AHL. They make too much money doing their own thing. They have VERY low expenses and sell quite a few tickets at higher prices than most other AA teams. If you were making that kind of money why would you pay an expansion fee to move to another league? They are probably very close to their revenue celing in the market they are in and are quite happy with that fact.
FTW might HAVE to join another league. The IHL is in sorry shape. Port Hurnon, Flint, Muskegon AND Bloomington have all had some sort of survival issues over the past year. Should even one shoe drop-and definitely if two do-then FTW is forced into going into another league. They'll have to choose between the ECHL and the CHL.
Niether the ECHL nor the CHL would likely charge FTW for entry. Either leauge would do cartwheels if FTW would join them.
The ECHL and minor league hockey as a whole is in a consolidation (shrinking). There may be an odd new franchise pop up (Indy would seem as likely as anything that I've heard), but the major focus is clearly on maintaining existing franchises. Minor league hockey has dropped from about 120 teams in the late 90's to about 75 now. The expansion south has been a complete failure. Part of that may be due to the fact that hockey is far less physcial than when it was when the major southern expansion began in the 90's. In any case, expansion is probably not on anyone's agenda right now.
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"The only way David Desharnais will see an NHL game is if he buys a ticket".
--donnie hockey
"David Desharnais will be invisible during 5 on 5 hockey. IN THE AHL"
--donnie hockey
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Jericho
(The Next Level!)
336 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2008 : 5:39:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by hrc666
quote:
Originally posted by Jericho
Fort Wayne will never join the ECHL for the same reason they won't join the AHL. They make too much money doing their own thing. They have VERY low expenses and sell quite a few tickets at higher prices than most other AA teams. If you were making that kind of money why would you pay an expansion fee to move to another league? They are probably very close to their revenue celing in the market they are in and are quite happy with that fact.
FTW might HAVE to join another league. The IHL is in sorry shape. Port Hurnon, Flint, Muskegon AND Bloomington have all had some sort of survival issues over the past year. Should even one shoe drop-and definitely if two do-then FTW is forced into going into another league. They'll have to choose between the ECHL and the CHL.
Niether the ECHL nor the CHL would likely charge FTW for entry. Either leauge would do cartwheels if FTW would join them.
The ECHL and minor league hockey as a whole is in a consolidation (shrinking). There may be an odd new franchise pop up (Indy would seem as likely as anything that I've heard), but the major focus is clearly on maintaining existing franchises. Minor league hockey has dropped from about 120 teams in the late 90's to about 75 now. The expansion south has been a complete failure. Part of that may be due to the fact that hockey is far less physcial than when it was when the major southern expansion began in the 90's. In any case, expansion is probably not on anyone's agenda right now.
If the IHL were to go belly up I could see FW considering that. That being said I said never because I don't think the IHL is going to go belly up any time soon.
Flint looks to the be the only franchise that is really in trouble right now. Yes PH's numbers are low, but they are also up 18% over last year in what is traditionally the lowest drawing part of the season (Nov-Dec).
I may be wrong, (which I've been known to be before) but I think the IHL will be playing next year. |
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Shorty_Rock
(Finally Got A Star!)
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2008 : 6:18:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by tjpavlik
I would agree with Elvis and Jericho... the ECHL has to keep the current franchises operational before expanding. Given the current economic state of affairs keeping your teams solvent such be job #1.
I thought I heard Columbia would be back next year...renovations to the arena or something like that kept them out this year.
Other than the Everblades and the Stingrays which do quite well I believe all the southern division is living on borrowed time. The domino effect cannot be overlooked; for every team that fails travel costs increase and the revenue decreases for the survivors (Just ask the Sea Wolves). Fans have a hard time supporting a team that they know is failing or about to leave. We've seen that here in Cincinnati far more times than we deserve.
SC and Florida are indeed doing quite well. However, I noticed during the conference finals (Games 4 & 5) that the SC crowds were down from when I was a season ticket holder. I know that after a couple seasons in the E, they were offered an AHL Franchise. Their owner turned it down after soliciting opinions from the fan base. However, that owner pass away during last season. It will be interesting to see if they maintain their status throughout this season and next.
As for Columbia, there is no telling what is going on. Columbia is a Univ of South Carolina (USC) town. USC was against the Inferno from day one and did absolutely everything they could to get them to go away. While I've heard that they could return, I seriously doubt it because of the Gamecocks.
Other than the Rays and Blades, Florida and South Carolina simply cannot support hockey. I'm not sure why, but the list of examples is fairly is long:
Columbia
Pee Dee Pride (Florence, SC)
Greenville
Myrtle Beach (Still don't have an arena after how many years?)
Augusta (Technically in Georgia, but it is literally on the border)
Talahassee
Jacksonville
Pensacola
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HOCKEYgod
(The Next Level!)
207 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2008 : 09:45:40 AM
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@shortyrock...FYI- Jacksonville has a team currently...in the SPHL.
check out the map...
http://www.aardvarkmap.net/map/VTRJHTFK
Florida in general should be GREAT for hockey. That being said, the problem that happens to HOCKEY is the same thing that the Tampa Bay RAYS face in baseball. People support their HOMETOWN TEAMS... which, given that most people in Florida aren't FROM FLORIDA, they root for another team.
Does anyone even remember that the Lightning won a Stanley Cup? Despite that fact the Lighting are 19th in home attendance this season. SURE the cup was in 2004.. but still.
The ECHL has a number of SOUTHERN CHAMPIONS- South Carolina has won twice I believe and in 1997 two teams from the south played for the championship. (South Carolina and Louisiana) and since 1997 there has almost always been a southern team in the finals-with exception of the last two seasons. (this is all off the top of my head though- so I could be wrong)
If I were the ECHL, if I'm looking into any expansion at all I'd be looking out west. I'm not sure that the south will be able maintain the franchises that it has, considering travel costs and such.
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cMan2KellyCup
(Been Here Awhile)
USA
540 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2008 : 12:11:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by mheck13
I know some people would like to see another hockey team in Indy, Louisville, Lexington, and other cities near Cincinnati. I discovered that Indy will be having a team in the Midwest Hockey League (MWHL). 2009-10 is the first season for the MWHL. Louisville will be a hard sell with the U of L during basketball time. Lexington the same way with U of K. Toledo will have a team next year.
Someone did point out that there should be more teams in the National Conference to compensate for the large number of teams in the American Conference.
Here are some of my ideas: 1) check to see if an ECHL team can exist in both the states of Washington and Oregon. 2) try the same thing with the Dakotas (a pit stop for any team from the east on a road trip to California or worst case Alaska) 3) Make sure that the Reno team will be stable for at least 5 years.
These are just my thoughts. Feel free to share your ideas.
Here is some problems with the idea, although it is a good one...
1. You could even out the franchises you already have... but, even if you wanted to even out the teams, you cant... you have what I will call the ECHL Originals way out here in the eastern part of the country... the former WCHL teams, plus Victoria and Ontario, are the only ones in the pacific coast, no in-between, leaving a gap covering almost the whole country. Therefore, you can not just simply even the divisions. That is why the schedule is unbalanced with very rare crossover, kind of like a major league baseball schedule.
2. In addition, the territory that the ECHL wont touch is covered by the National, American, Central AND International leagues... the ECHL I dont think wants to impede on that territory.
3. The other problem is that it appears that when the ECHL and WCHL merged, they were fixated on the two leagues being leagues within a league with the winners going for the Kelly Cup in June, which goes against any logic regarding league play.
The way I see it, if you want to get rid of the problem, get rid of the WCHL teams and expand westward as normal. |
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