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hrc666
(Loves To Post!)
1363 Posts |
 Posted - 11/17/2009 : 01:22:13 AM
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The Cincinnati Cyclones are projecting a crowd of 9,000 for Tuesday morning's game vs. Trenton.
If the crowd is 8202, it will lift the Cyclone's season average to 6467 which would place them FIRST in the ECHL in average attendance. Although this average attendance lead would be short-lived (as Wednesday night's crowd will reduce the average crowd below Toledo's average), it is miraculous that the Cyclones would have lead the ECHL at any point in any season.
When the team returned to the ice in 2006-07 following a 2 year voluntary suspension, they averaged a paltry 1880 per game which placed them dead last in a then 25 team ECHL.
My hat is off to the Cyclone's management team for their extraordinary work. The turnaround in the box office performance of this franchise is nothing shy of remarkable.
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"The only way David Desharnais will see an NHL game is if he buys a ticket".
--donnie hockey
"David Desharnais will be invisible during 5 on 5 hockey. IN THE AHL"
--donnie hockey
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Edited by - hrc666 on 11/17/2009 01:26:56 AM |
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Primis
(Finally Got A Star!)
USA
56 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2009 : 1:26:24 PM
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Honestly, I can't imagine you guys will be in the ECHL for too many more years. I'm betting the AHL gives Cincy another spin before too long, considering the crowds and enthusiasm. I've heard many rumblings... and Cicny's just too large of a hockey market to ignore.
Would you guys welcome back the AHL do you think, or just rather stay in the "E"? |
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mheck13
(The Next Level!)
USA
208 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2009 : 1:33:06 PM
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| I would like the Clones to be in the AHL as long as we keep our traditional heckling. With hockey being in the state it is in and how much control the NHL team would have with our personel, I love the Cyclones as they are. Allow us to shop for free agents and allowing them to be called up has done wonders in our recruiting. I'm not sure if in the AHL, the mother team would have tolerance for that. |
Cyclones hockey. A championship caliber team in a city of losers. |
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mheck13
(The Next Level!)
USA
208 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2009 : 1:34:20 PM
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| FYI, the attendence was over 8,900. I entered in the middle of the 2nd period due to class. What a sweet win for the Clones. |
Cyclones hockey. A championship caliber team in a city of losers. |
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BP2011
(Been Here Awhile)
USA
531 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2009 : 1:41:53 PM
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| I would love to see the Cyclones move up to the A, but the attendance has not been as consistant that an NHL team would like, if all home games were like the old days Friday and Saturday nights, and Sunday afternoons maybe it would have a better chance, but as it is now I have no problem with the ECHL, its a fun and very competitive league |
08, 10 Kelly Cup Champions
08, 10, 14 American Conference Champions
08, 09, 13 North Division Champions
08 Brabham Cup Champions |
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elvis77
(Loves To Post!)
1435 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2009 : 3:34:21 PM
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| i'm a fan of the echl. the ahl allows for a bit less player turnover which is fun it's also more expensive. currently we play $12 for all but the fist 2 rows and select center ice seats. those $12 tickets would jump to $20 or $25 if the cyclones were to move to the ahl. |
"PBR can do that to you....1,2,3,12 beers and you're f**ked"
-oscar
"and i don't give a damn 'bout my bad reputation" - joan jett
"beer is proof that god loves us and wants us to be happy." - benjamin franklin
"is that a pulled pork sandwich i smell?"
"some things are just better without pants...."
www.cycwords.wordpress.com |
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bags
(Person With Nothing Better To Do!)
USA
2224 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2009 : 4:23:41 PM
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Admiral's Quarters Plan
Single Game Half Season Full Season
$21* $365 $720
Mid Deck Plan
Single Game Half Season Full Season
$18* $315 $620
Stern & Bow Plan
Single Game Half Season Full Season
$16* $280 $550
These are the Milwaukee Admiral prices. Way too much for Cincinnati hockey
patrons. We need to stay in the ECHL and enjoy success. I would like to see
upper bowl middle or ends for $10 and a special weekday rate of $9 for Monday
thru Thursday games. |
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Donnie Hockey
(Loves To Post!)
USA
1514 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2009 : 9:12:41 PM
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Who owned the franchise, arena lease, affiliate fee and travel costs would determine ticket prices for an AHL team in Cincinnati. If an NHL team like the New Jersey Devils owned the team, their concern would be on player development. If they lost $1.5 to $2 million a year operating a team in Cincinnati so be it as long as they were developing two or three players a year that would become regulars for them. The financial loss would be an investment in the future so they could make tickets $12 or so because fans in the stands wouldn't be the priority. But, if Nederlander or someone else owned the team, because of travel costs and the affiliation fee, ticket prices would need to be in the $16 - $20 range to make the AHL viable at US Bank Arena.
In a market like Cincinnati, the level of play only really matters to about 300 people. Cincinnati has not been, is not now and will never be a hockey town. What Cincinnati is is an entertainment town. Put on a good show, make it affordable for families, and let people know you're there, and the level of play is inconsequential.
The Cyclones brand has gone from the ECHL to the IHL, back to the ECHL, to dormat status and back to the ECHL. You can't keep changing leagues. It's working right now. Why change it? |
www.twitter.com/donhelbig |
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elvis77
(Loves To Post!)
1435 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2009 : 9:25:18 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Donnie Hockey
Who owned the franchise, arena lease, affiliate fee and travel costs would determine ticket prices for an AHL team in Cincinnati. If an NHL team like the New Jersey Devils owned the team, their concern would be on player development. If they lost $1.5 to $2 million a year operating a team in Cincinnati so be it as long as they were developing two or three players a year that would become regulars for them. The financial loss would be an investment in the future so they could make tickets $12 or so because fans in the stands wouldn't be the priority. But, if Nederlander or someone else owned the team, because of travel costs and the affiliation fee, ticket prices would need to be in the $16 - $20 range to make the AHL viable at US Bank Arena.
In a market like Cincinnati, the level of play only really matters to about 300 people. Cincinnati has not been, is not now and will never be a hockey town. What Cincinnati is is an entertainment town. Put on a good show, make it affordable for families, and let people know you're there, and the level of play is inconsequential.
The Cyclones brand has gone from the ECHL to the IHL, back to the ECHL, to dormat status and back to the ECHL. You can't keep changing leagues. It's working right now. Why change it?
thanks for the insight donnie. i was basing my pricing on my experience with the handful of ahl games i've attended all of which have been $20+ to sit in a comparable location to where i sit at cyclones games for $12.
you are exactly right in that the level is not realling important in building the cyclones brand. if the games are affordable and entertaining people will come regardless of the level of play. |
"PBR can do that to you....1,2,3,12 beers and you're f**ked"
-oscar
"and i don't give a damn 'bout my bad reputation" - joan jett
"beer is proof that god loves us and wants us to be happy." - benjamin franklin
"is that a pulled pork sandwich i smell?"
"some things are just better without pants...."
www.cycwords.wordpress.com |
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bags
(Person With Nothing Better To Do!)
USA
2224 Posts |
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hrc666
(Loves To Post!)
1363 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2009 : 12:30:04 AM
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An AHL franchise costs almost twice as much to operate as an ECHL franchise does.
While the Cyclones have made great strides in attendance, the team isn't anywhere near close to generating the revenue necessary to support an AHL team.
Pricing and promotion are what drives the hockey engine in Cincinnati. Winning and level of play is secondary.
The AHL appears to have about half of its teams in trouble. It's going to be very interesting to see where the Peorias, Torontos and Lowells (just to name a few) end up in the coming years.
I wouldn't at all be surprised to see several AHL teams fold in the coming few years. Unless NHL teams subsidize them quite heavily, the vast majority of AHL teams appear to not be viable enterprises. Given that more than a few NHL teams are on the endangered list, there may not be a need for 30 AHL teams in the near future.
Hockey is in deep trouble almost everywhere. I would think that the consolidation (read: folding) of franchises at the minor league level will continue for the next few years. |
"The only way David Desharnais will see an NHL game is if he buys a ticket".
--donnie hockey
"David Desharnais will be invisible during 5 on 5 hockey. IN THE AHL"
--donnie hockey
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Donnie Hockey
(Loves To Post!)
USA
1514 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2009 : 12:39:37 AM
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Peoria, Toronto and Lowell all owned by NHL teams and for those teams it's about an investment in the future more so than trying to make a profit running an AHL team.
Cost of operating an AHL team in Lowell is much lower than it would be for a team in Cincinnati or Cleveland. You might only have two or three overnight stays all season in Lowell (or Worcester, Providence, and some other AHL markets). You leave after 3pm for most road games in Lowell, which saves on per diem, and the team is back home by midnight or at the latest, 1am. A team drawing 1,500 a game in Lowell does better financially than some teams that draw 4,500 fans elsewhere because the travel costs are so much lower. |
www.twitter.com/donhelbig |
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hrc666
(Loves To Post!)
1363 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2009 : 01:06:37 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Donnie Hockey
Peoria, Toronto and Lowell all owned by NHL teams and for those teams it's about an investment in the future more so than trying to make a profit running an AHL team.
Cost of operating an AHL team in Lowell is much lower than it would be for a team in Cincinnati or Cleveland. You might only have two or three overnight stays all season in Lowell (or Worcester, Providence, and some other AHL markets). You leave after 3pm for most road games in Lowell, which saves on per diem, and the team is back home by midnight or at the latest, 1am. A team drawing 1,500 a game in Lowell does better financially than some teams that draw 4,500 fans elsewhere because the travel costs are so much lower.
Lowell's 1500 is a better proposition than someone else's 4500? C'mon now. 3,000 per game @$12 per head times 40 is $1.44 million. The travel savings in Lowell don't make up for that. Abbotsford or Manitoba may have travel costs which would eat that much more up than Lowell, but that's about it.
Peoria (owned by the Blues) has a good chance of landing in St. Charles, Mo.
Lowell's generous lease with the Tsongas Center expires at the end of this season and they could easily relocate.
While some NHL teams are content to subsidize their AHL affiliates with huge losses, many aren't. The landscape of the AHL could undergo a vast rearrangement in the coming years between relocations and possible foldings. The AHL is in a world of hurt right now.
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"The only way David Desharnais will see an NHL game is if he buys a ticket".
--donnie hockey
"David Desharnais will be invisible during 5 on 5 hockey. IN THE AHL"
--donnie hockey
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Donnie Hockey
(Loves To Post!)
USA
1514 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2009 : 01:13:38 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by hrc666
Unless NHL teams subsidize them quite heavily, the vast majority of AHL teams appear to not be viable enterprises.
NHL teams do not subsidize AHL teams. The NHL team receives an affiliation fee from AHL teams (unless the NHL team owns the AHL team). The affiliation fee they receive from AHL teams is more than $1 million annually, on average. Outside of two situations (Chicago and Hershey), the NHL team is responsible for filling all roster spots, the coaches and training staff. The AHL team is responsible for all travel and other off-ice costs.
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www.twitter.com/donhelbig |
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Donnie Hockey
(Loves To Post!)
USA
1514 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2009 : 01:18:38 AM
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What I am saying, Joe, is a team like Lowell with an average of 1,500 does better financially than some teams that might draw 4,500 because of travel costs, lease agreements, etc. You can't tell how a team does based on the attendance numbers because every team needs something different to make the nut.
The difference in travel costs between Albany and Cincinnati was nearly $500,000. Both teams could have $10 tickets and Cincinnati could draw 4,000 a game and Albany 2,500, but at the end of the day Albany does better because their costs aren't as high. |
www.twitter.com/donhelbig |
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hrc666
(Loves To Post!)
1363 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2009 : 01:41:04 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Donnie Hockey
quote:
Originally posted by hrc666
Unless NHL teams subsidize them quite heavily, the vast majority of AHL teams appear to not be viable enterprises.
NHL teams do not subsidize AHL teams. The NHL team receives an affiliation fee from AHL teams (unless the NHL team owns the AHL team). The affiliation fee they receive from AHL teams is more than $1 million annually, on average. Outside of two situations (Chicago and Hershey), the NHL team is responsible for filling all roster spots, the coaches and training staff. The AHL team is responsible for all travel and other off-ice costs.
Owning=subsidizing if a team operates at a loss.
Reduction of affiliation fees (which I've heard is done from time to time) is also a form of subsidy. |
"The only way David Desharnais will see an NHL game is if he buys a ticket".
--donnie hockey
"David Desharnais will be invisible during 5 on 5 hockey. IN THE AHL"
--donnie hockey
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