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hrc666
(Loves To Post!)
1363 Posts |
 Posted - 02/09/2010 : 9:07:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Bombay
quote:
Originally posted by hrc666
Chistov. Come on.
I don't know. Christov is having a great year in the KHL. It would be interesting to see how a player like Desharnais would do should he ever make his way over to that league.
Chistov was one of my favorite Ducks. Fast, crafty and one of the worst finishers that I've ever seen. His 15 goal season in 2004-05 would have been at least a 30 goal season had he been just average in his ability to "finish".
http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=56740
He topped off at 38 points for an entire AHL season. Huge advantage to Desharnais on this one. Chistov is now 26, so he's a much more seasoned player than DD. It would be interesting to see them compete, I must admit.
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"The only way David Desharnais will see an NHL game is if he buys a ticket".
--donnie hockey
"David Desharnais will be invisible during 5 on 5 hockey. IN THE AHL"
--donnie hockey
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Edited by - hrc666 on 02/09/2010 9:13:36 PM |
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BP2011
(Been Here Awhile)
USA
531 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2010 : 9:56:17 PM
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| I will agree with Donnie in that there have been lots of great players in this city, on the other hand being an All Star, Rookie of the Year, Most Points player, and Most Valuable Player in the same year does carry some baggage with it and does deserve to be mentioned among the cities best, picking a single player is almost impossible because players like Biggs, Wren, Reg Thomas, and Deve Debol for example all spent many years in Cincinnati, Debol with 3 Cincinnati teams, Reg with 2 and Biggs and Wren were constant with the Clones and Ducks, Its Chucks opinion and I am sure Ron Smith, or Moe Mantha, or Mike Babcock would have 3 different answers as well |
08, 10 Kelly Cup Champions
08, 10, 14 American Conference Champions
08, 09, 13 North Division Champions
08 Brabham Cup Champions |
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hrc666
(Loves To Post!)
1363 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2010 : 10:03:48 PM
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Weber was obviously speaking in a limited context.
I'd have a tough time thinking that Weber rates DD above HHOFers Mike Gartner or Mark Messier.
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"The only way David Desharnais will see an NHL game is if he buys a ticket".
--donnie hockey
"David Desharnais will be invisible during 5 on 5 hockey. IN THE AHL"
--donnie hockey
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Donnie Hockey
(Loves To Post!)
USA
1514 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2010 : 10:05:48 PM
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| Robbie Ftorek is the best player I've seen while wearing a Cincinnati uniform. Mark Messier, Mike Gartner and Bill Hajt went on to become the three best at the next level. |
www.twitter.com/donhelbig |
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hrc666
(Loves To Post!)
1363 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2010 : 10:08:10 PM
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Mike Liut over Bill Hajt.
Dennis Sobchuck at his best was better than Ftorek. But neither cold hold a candle to ole Mo. |
"The only way David Desharnais will see an NHL game is if he buys a ticket".
--donnie hockey
"David Desharnais will be invisible during 5 on 5 hockey. IN THE AHL"
--donnie hockey
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Edited by - hrc666 on 02/09/2010 10:09:23 PM |
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Hockey Traveller
(The Next Level!)
134 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2010 : 10:25:25 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Bombay
quote:
Originally posted by hrc666
Chistov. Come on.
I don't know. Christov is having a great year in the KHL. It would be interesting to see how a player like Desharnais would do should he ever make his way over to that league.
Why, he would dominate it, OF COURSE!!! He would make every NHL scout really sorry they didn't draft him or sign him or trade for him, every NHL Head Coach regret not having him as one of their top 6 forwards, on their top power play line, every hockey fan in North America cry in despair the day he leaves the continent. |
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Donnie Hockey
(Loves To Post!)
USA
1514 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2010 : 10:27:57 PM
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Dennis Sobchuk had a better shot and was a better skater and goal-scorer, but he wasn't the all-around player that Ftorek was. Rick Dudley, in fact, called Ftorek the best centerman he ever played with, high praise considering he played with Gilbert Perrault when he was in his prime.
It was close between Liut and Hajt for me. Hajt played 14 years and was always out against the other team's top line. He was underrated, arguably one of the top three defensive-defensemen in the NHL for a good part of his career.
Liut was the best goalie I saw play here. Giguere was outstanding when he was here, but only played half a season. Bryzgalov had everything it took to be great and is now one of the best goalies in the NHL. Mason's had a solid NHL career. Schwab was a competent NHL backup. The rest were journeymen type goaltenders, some good enough to play some games in the NHL. |
www.twitter.com/donhelbig |
Edited by - Donnie Hockey on 02/09/2010 10:30:42 PM |
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Donnie Hockey
(Loves To Post!)
USA
1514 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2010 : 10:43:02 PM
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| Back on topic with Desharnais, he and former Cincinnati Mighty Duck Zenon Konopka are good examples of what the ECHL is; a league that gives the overlooked an opportunity to prove people wrong. |
www.twitter.com/donhelbig |
Edited by - Donnie Hockey on 02/09/2010 10:45:05 PM |
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hrc666
(Loves To Post!)
1363 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2010 : 11:08:41 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Donnie Hockey
Back on topic with Desharnais, he and former Cincinnati Mighty Duck Zenon Konopka are good examples of what the ECHL is; a league that gives the overlooked an opportunity to prove people wrong.
Agreed. If drafting were a more exact science, then the ECHL wouldn't even be a part of any affiliated/developmental system. Given that most draft decisions are made prior to a player turning 18 and that many role-type players aren't NHL-ready until their mid (even later) 20's, it isn't surprising that many players who weren't considered prospects end up in the show nevertheless.
Mighty Ducks who ended up in the NHL for more than a cup of coffee who spent significant time in the ECHL include Knopka, Bylsma, Aucoin (UHL), and Guite to name a few.
Former Cyclones in just the past four years who could possibly included in such a list are Stewart, Desharnais, and Desjardins.
One will never find a Sidney Crosby or an Ovechkin in the ECHL; their talents are too easily identifiable and their development far beyond needing any seasoning in the minor leagues of any level. Still, something on the order of 80% of NHLers have spent some time in the AHL and a significant percentage of AHLers have spent time in the ECHL. There will always be those who are late bloomers or are dismissed because of other factors (Desharnais/size) who will have to prove the exceptions to the generally sound drafting principles employed by pro scouts. The ECHL provides their stage for doing so.
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"The only way David Desharnais will see an NHL game is if he buys a ticket".
--donnie hockey
"David Desharnais will be invisible during 5 on 5 hockey. IN THE AHL"
--donnie hockey
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Edited by - hrc666 on 02/09/2010 11:13:00 PM |
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Hockey Traveller
(The Next Level!)
134 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2010 : 12:09:10 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by elvis77
More interestingly, David has not been credited with a giveaway in his 3 NHL games. I'm not claiming the puck is glued to his stick, every pass has been perfect or he hasn't lost control of the puck, but when one of the someone says something along of the lines of "giveaways and turnovers will plagues his career" (this is paraphrased) I would expect to see him have a few by now if that is indeed the case.
The stat sheet may not reflect his "turnovers", but if anyone watched the game Sunday, they saw:
1st period) A shot was deflected over the Boston net. Desharnais chased the puck down in the right offensive corner, and just as he got to the puck and tried to skate with it, Andrew Ference checked him into the boards, knocking the puck free, and Boston came away with the puck; On another shift, Desharnais carried the puck into the zone on left wing, and tried to dump and chase into the left corner, but he wasn't fast enough to chase it down, as Dennis Wideman checked him out of the play and Daniel Paille came out with the puck.
2nd period) On a power play, Desharnais was battling for the puck behind the Boston net, but fell down and Marco Sturm cleared the puck out of the zone; His next shift, he skated the puck over the blue line along the right boards, and Marc Savard poked the puck off Desharnais' stick and came away with the puck; On another shift, a Boston player took the puck right off Desharnais' stick in the right offensive circle.
3rd period) Puck dumped into offensive left corner, McQuaid beats Desharnais to the puck
I know that every player gets knocked off pucks, loses races to pucks in the corner, and gets his pocket picked once in a while. But this all happened in one game. On the other hand, Desharnais seemed to make good decisions with the puck when he had time to pass it. His success obviously was in the faceoff circle, and whenever he skated it down the middle of the ice, dishing it to one wing or the other right as he hit the blue line. He also made a spin move on the left side of the net and got off a sneaky bad angle shot at one time, and another time, on the same shift, was sniffing the net for some garbage, trying to poke the puck past Rask after the puck had been shot into the crease. That was actually a comical point in the game: there was pushing and shoving after the whistle at the side of the net, and Desharnais was involved, as was Zdeno Chara. When the players stopped the pleasantries, the camera angle showed the back of Chara, and two Montreal players around him, but where was DD? Well, if you recorded the game, and slowed it down, for just a split second, Chara moved to where you could barely see a blue helmet right about at his chest level, but then he moved again and you didn't see the helmet anymore. I almost thought DD disappeared. I had to rewind it twice to see where he was. |
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hrc666
(Loves To Post!)
1363 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2010 : 02:28:48 AM
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Scouts know everything:
http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=17657
If the undrafted and originally ECHL-signed (Weber signed DD before Hamilton inked him) Desharnais plays 5 more career NHL games he will have tied this former Cyclone's (a 1st Round Pick #8 overall) career NHL game total.
His first goal or assist will surpass the career NHL point total of the "experts" choice. A pretty high first round expert pick at that.
Anyone who continually relies upon a scouting/drafting decision to justify his opinion of a hockey player relies upon very shaky evidence much of the time. It also indicates a very strong inability to form an opinion based on one's own insight. In a nutshell, it's a form of "parroting", something one generally associates with sycophants and lackeys.
Right, ht?
quote:
Why, he would dominate it, OF COURSE!!! He would make every NHL scout really sorry they didn't draft him or sign him or trade for him, every NHL Head Coach regret not having him as one of their top 6 forwards, on their top power play line, every hockey fan in North America cry in despair the day he leaves the continent.
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"The only way David Desharnais will see an NHL game is if he buys a ticket".
--donnie hockey
"David Desharnais will be invisible during 5 on 5 hockey. IN THE AHL"
--donnie hockey
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Edited by - hrc666 on 02/10/2010 02:40:10 AM |
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elvis77
(Loves To Post!)
1435 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2010 : 12:05:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Hockey Traveller
quote:
Originally posted by elvis77
More interestingly, David has not been credited with a giveaway in his 3 NHL games. I'm not claiming the puck is glued to his stick, every pass has been perfect or he hasn't lost control of the puck, but when one of the someone says something along of the lines of "giveaways and turnovers will plagues his career" (this is paraphrased) I would expect to see him have a few by now if that is indeed the case.
The stat sheet may not reflect his "turnovers", but if anyone watched the game Sunday, they saw:
1st period) A shot was deflected over the Boston net. Desharnais chased the puck down in the right offensive corner, and just as he got to the puck and tried to skate with it, Andrew Ference checked him into the boards, knocking the puck free, and Boston came away with the puck; On another shift, Desharnais carried the puck into the zone on left wing, and tried to dump and chase into the left corner, but he wasn't fast enough to chase it down, as Dennis Wideman checked him out of the play and Daniel Paille came out with the puck.
2nd period) On a power play, Desharnais was battling for the puck behind the Boston net, but fell down and Marco Sturm cleared the puck out of the zone; His next shift, he skated the puck over the blue line along the right boards, and Marc Savard poked the puck off Desharnais' stick and came away with the puck; On another shift, a Boston player took the puck right off Desharnais' stick in the right offensive circle.
3rd period) Puck dumped into offensive left corner, McQuaid beats Desharnais to the puck
I know that every player gets knocked off pucks, loses races to pucks in the corner, and gets his pocket picked once in a while. But this all happened in one game. On the other hand, Desharnais seemed to make good decisions with the puck when he had time to pass it. His success obviously was in the faceoff circle, and whenever he skated it down the middle of the ice, dishing it to one wing or the other right as he hit the blue line. He also made a spin move on the left side of the net and got off a sneaky bad angle shot at one time, and another time, on the same shift, was sniffing the net for some garbage, trying to poke the puck past Rask after the puck had been shot into the crease. That was actually a comical point in the game: there was pushing and shoving after the whistle at the side of the net, and Desharnais was involved, as was Zdeno Chara. When the players stopped the pleasantries, the camera angle showed the back of Chara, and two Montreal players around him, but where was DD? Well, if you recorded the game, and slowed it down, for just a split second, Chara moved to where you could barely see a blue helmet right about at his chest level, but then he moved again and you didn't see the helmet anymore. I almost thought DD disappeared. I had to rewind it twice to see where he was.
You have just described play sequences that happen to players in the NHL all the time. Often, they happen to the same player during the same game, especially when one team is being out played at every position by the other team, which is what MTL ran into against Boston on Sunday.
Take a look at just about any Blue Jackets game in the month of December and you see just about every player getting beat/losing the puck in those same ways. Are you suggesting Rick Nash is not an NHL caliber player. Perhaps the players were dogging it to get rid of Hitchcock or maybe it was Hitchcock's game systems did not cater to the strengths of his players, regardless the CBJ were getting out played and the result looked very similar to what happened to MTL. My guess is, and I might just do it out of boredom, if I watch the game again I will indeed see David be involved on the plays you described, but I'll also see MTL's regulars be involved in plays that are similar.
Again, I'm not saying David is the "next coming." He's young, he's going to make mistakes. During stretches of the last two games he has shown that he has a NHL Caliber skill set. In the game at Pittsburgh the Desharnais/Trotter/White line had some of it's best chances against a line with Crosby/Malkin and I forget the other wing. He needs to be consistent and he needs to get stronger and faster. Stronger and faster can both be earned with hard work at the gym and rink. The consistency will come with opportunity; with each NHL chance comes more knowledge as to what he's capable of and what he needs to work on. |
"PBR can do that to you....1,2,3,12 beers and you're f**ked"
-oscar
"and i don't give a damn 'bout my bad reputation" - joan jett
"beer is proof that god loves us and wants us to be happy." - benjamin franklin
"is that a pulled pork sandwich i smell?"
"some things are just better without pants...."
www.cycwords.wordpress.com |
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Donnie Hockey
(Loves To Post!)
USA
1514 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2010 : 12:30:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by elvis77
Again, I'm not saying David is the "next coming." He's young, he's going to make mistakes.
He's 23 and a third-year pro. Most players that have not established themselves as NHLers by the end of their third pro season never do, with the exception of goalies. By the end of a player's third season and at the age of 23, 24, especially with forwards, you know what they are. |
www.twitter.com/donhelbig |
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hrc666
(Loves To Post!)
1363 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2010 : 12:57:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Donnie Hockey
quote:
Originally posted by elvis77
Again, I'm not saying David is the "next coming." He's young, he's going to make mistakes.
He's 23 and a third-year pro. Most players that have not established themselves as NHLers by the end of their third pro season never do, with the exception of goalies. By the end of a player's third season and at the age of 23, 24, especially with forwards, you know what they are.
While Ben Guite and Konopka may be a stretch on "establishing themselves" in the NHL, they both played significant games after they were 3rd year pro forwards. Dan Bylsma would qualify as an established NHLer (400+ games) and he played over 300 minor league games before even playing a single NHL game.
Hell, your hero Kunitz wasn't even a drafted player.
I've only used a few former Ducks (a poor franchise competitively at that) for my examples. The NHL is full of forwards who didn't become full timers in the first 2 or 3 years of their careers.
Your cliche-driven campaign again Desharnais' NHL chances is flimsier than "Team Tiger's" initial responses to his "trangressions".
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"The only way David Desharnais will see an NHL game is if he buys a ticket".
--donnie hockey
"David Desharnais will be invisible during 5 on 5 hockey. IN THE AHL"
--donnie hockey
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Edited by - hrc666 on 02/10/2010 1:00:20 PM |
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hrc666
(Loves To Post!)
1363 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2010 : 1:05:34 PM
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@ Elvis. Thanks for pointing out the ridiculous perspective the "ht's" put on DD's efforts. Pray tell, getting knocked off a puck, falling down, and getting beaten to a puck in one game!! Glory be! Such things never happen to future Hall of Famers Lupul or Kunitz. LOL.
Another factor our resident "expert" hasn't any idea about is the player's drive and dedication. Any of us who knows anything about the work ethics of various Cyclones know the type of players that DD and Cedrick were/are. They both have incredible work ethics and competitive drives.
Any player analysis which doesn't include intangibles is incomplete at best. |
"The only way David Desharnais will see an NHL game is if he buys a ticket".
--donnie hockey
"David Desharnais will be invisible during 5 on 5 hockey. IN THE AHL"
--donnie hockey
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