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elvis77
(Loves To Post!)
1435 Posts |
 Posted - 01/17/2011 : 10:35:54 AM
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I'm with Carch22 on this one but I'll go a step further.
Everyone one remembers the way Smith and Mayer played at the end of the season but does anyone remember the beginning? They were both inconsistent at best. They were either playing shutout/1 goal hockey or they were getting lit up. They weren't Lacasse/Gajewski bad but it certainly wasn't good. As Catch22 pointed out, Smith/Mayer had a much more defensive team in front of them. The opposition wasn't able to walk out of the corners or from behind the net last season.
There is no denying the team is built similarly to last seasons. As I stated earlier the fundamental change was behind the bench. Would everything be "rosey" if Chuck were at the helm? My guess is yes. I'm not saying they would be championship bound but Chuck was able to get the most from his players, even getting them to over achieve at times, implementing game plans that would allow them to be successful. I haven't seen the same from Skalde outside of the 3 games in Florida.
This team needs to be a defensive, workman like to in order to be successful.
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"PBR can do that to you....1,2,3,12 beers and you're f**ked"
-oscar
"and i don't give a damn 'bout my bad reputation" - joan jett
"beer is proof that god loves us and wants us to be happy." - benjamin franklin
"is that a pulled pork sandwich i smell?"
"some things are just better without pants...."
www.cycwords.wordpress.com |
Edited by - elvis77 on 01/17/2011 10:38:13 AM |
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BP2011
(Been Here Awhile)
USA
531 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2011 : 10:41:51 AM
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Nashville has had an injury list this season that is unbelievable. If Nashville was not as banged up or in rehab as Tootoo things maybe different. Chris Mueller will possibly remain in Nashville for the forseeable future which is why nobody is expecting Dylan Hunter back anytime soon. I believe that even if Chet continues to do well as he had in recent games he may remain here regardless of why he was sent down in the first place to get his head straight. Life of a minor league affiliate is Cincinnati-Milwaukee-Nashville this year, injuries lead to call ups.
The Florida/Rochester affiliation is a result of Chuck Weber. With the exception of Carl Hudson, Calla, Clackson, and Comrie have AHL expierence this year or in years past. Calla has 64 games up in the A and he needs the ECHL to work on his game. Clackson is doing a pretty good job, and Comrie I have not seen yet. Florida is getting healthy and these guys need to work on thier game. Cheverie has been a solid rookie goaltender who developed quicker this year then Mayer did last year because Cheverie was thrown to the wolves because of Milwaukee and Nashville's goaltender injuries. The life of a minor league affiliations are hard and sometimes helpful. Not alot you can do but take days and games one at a time. |
08, 10 Kelly Cup Champions
08, 10, 14 American Conference Champions
08, 09, 13 North Division Champions
08 Brabham Cup Champions |
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elvis77
(Loves To Post!)
1435 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2011 : 10:52:32 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bhf303
Well, with everything stated, it all comes back to coaching then as I see it. But is this a Skalde issue, or the team he inherited issue? What I mean by that is this, if Skalde can form his own team next year, can it be better? But then again, with the affiliations, how much control does he have in building his own team? Then there is the past performance of his last team, which wasn't that good. The argument was made previously that it was a different situation in Bloomington, one which was poor for Skalde, however, Bloomington is now in second place in their division and doing pretty well.
Skalde is a great coach if you're an AHL/NHL GM. Skalde has the Dmen active in the offense, runs a low cycle out of the corner, the power play is run of the half wall and point, etc. These "systems" are the current norm up the food chain. It's great from the affiliate point of view because they're prospects start to learn the same concepts they'll be implementing in the event of a call up.
The question about Skalde is, can he adapt to the pieces that he has and implement a game plan which puts them in the best position to be successful? He did that on the trip to Florida.
It's not all on the coaches though. The players have to execute. However, if the players aren't being successful with the systems that are in place then something has to change. At the ECHL level that change has to come from the coaching staff. |
"PBR can do that to you....1,2,3,12 beers and you're f**ked"
-oscar
"and i don't give a damn 'bout my bad reputation" - joan jett
"beer is proof that god loves us and wants us to be happy." - benjamin franklin
"is that a pulled pork sandwich i smell?"
"some things are just better without pants...."
www.cycwords.wordpress.com |
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Catch22
(Been Here Awhile)
USA
676 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2011 : 11:28:17 AM
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Agreed. Its been discussed many times but its time to remind everyone that in the ECHL, especially with a double affiliation like we have recently had, the coach will typically have "control" over less than half the roster.
Basically, you design a game around the players you have, not players around the game you want to play.
Weber excelled at this, with MANY more call-up issues than Skalde is dealing with. |
Yes, I grew up playing hockey... In Alabama. |
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hrc666
(Loves To Post!)
1363 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2011 : 3:09:57 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by elvis77
I'm with Carch22 on this one but I'll go a step further.
Everyone one remembers the way Smith and Mayer played at the end of the season but does anyone remember the beginning? They were both inconsistent at best. They were either playing shutout/1 goal hockey or they were getting lit up. They weren't Lacasse/Gajewski bad but it certainly wasn't good. As Catch22 pointed out, Smith/Mayer had a much more defensive team in front of them. The opposition wasn't able to walk out of the corners or from behind the net last season.
Despite the fact that the Cyclones came out flat (actually just plain pathetic) last Friday vs. WHL, the goaltending-if even adequate-could have changed the result of the game. Goals one and two (vs. Cheverie) and both of the goals vs. Pickard were softies. The goaltending's ongoing inconsistency is an issue. It was not at this point of the season (the halfway mark) last year. Mayer found his form by mid-Novemeber; Smith perhaps a bit earlier.
The affiliations this season have been albatrosses. We really don't have one affiliated player who is a huge asset to the team. That's never happened before. Our goaltending has always been superior via our affiliate send downs. Not so this year. We've never been saddled with a James DeLory before. It's probably a testament to Skalde's internal salesmanship (begging ) that this bum was shipped to some unfortunate CHL team. I'm not going to specifically rip on the others, but more than a few of them are disappointments-to categorize them MILDLY.
We returned at least ten (Robinson, Del Monte, Eghoetz, Aubin, Reynolds, Sheahan, O'Hanley, Pierce, Roeder, and Sproat) players from last season. That's far too many at the ECHL level. We may have returned five after the 07-08 Championship. Skalde walked into someone else's locker room; he wasn't able to create his own. I don't know how much control he had/has over the returnees. Only he and Ray Harris know that. I'm pretty sure that he wouldn't have returned a few of these guys-or at the least CUT a few already. We've got MANY underperfomers who played on last season's Championship team. The level of continuity with last year's team was purely a function of Weber's late departure. Why aren't more of these guys with Stork? He probably could have had most of them had he WANTED them. He obviously didn't.
This team may have been a few points better under Weber by this point in the season. AT BEST. It's been a talent issue to this point. The good news is that no one in our conference appears loaded and if this team peaks come April 1, then it can make some noise in the playoffs. One thing that I won't question about this team is its character. The Reading comeback of last season says it all. The Florida sweep and the turnaround game vs. Wheeling on Saturday after Friday's fiasco shows that the team and the coaches aren't quitters.
Perhaps we've got a team full of Claude Lemieux's on our hands. Mediocre to lousy during the regular season and awesome during the playoffs. It's a reasonable possibility.
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"The only way David Desharnais will see an NHL game is if he buys a ticket".
--donnie hockey
"David Desharnais will be invisible during 5 on 5 hockey. IN THE AHL"
--donnie hockey
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Edited by - hrc666 on 01/17/2011 3:25:30 PM |
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poff34
(The Next Level!)
USA
250 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2011 : 5:34:30 PM
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| UM simple MORE SHOTS ON NET!!!! quit waiting for the perfect shot and these cute little pass attempts. You miss 100% of shots you never take. And they are almost at that now! |
Poff34
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PressureDrop
(Rookie)
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2011 : 8:34:17 PM
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| Any one of these returning players can be released by Skalde. Reynolds and Sproat who were supposed to be playing overseas, were both signed by Skalde. |
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elvis77
(Loves To Post!)
1435 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2011 : 10:10:31 PM
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@HRC, Your time frame with Smith and Mayer is off by a few months, both of them allowed some very large numbers to get hung up on them into the month of January. I would say they both started to get rolling in Feb.
Yes, the players need to be held accountable and there are some that are under performing compared to last season. Let me put it this way though, why was the team able to succeed last season but not this season if not for coaching. Skalde has a very similar lineup, but the style of play is quite a bit different than what Chuck had in place. Chuck had success, and Skalde is getting inconsistent results. Yes, the players have to execute, but if they aren't it's up to coaching to get tweak things. We saw it with Chuck in 08-09 when he took a team to a division title and the conference final with nothing but smoke and mirrors.
Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike Skalde. I like several of the moves he's made (releasing JC Sawyer for one). From conversations, and listening at the Coach's Show it's obvious he's looking for answers. However, it's impossible to deny that the turnover in the coaching staff has had a great effect on the results the team is seeing this season.
As far as DeLory goes, it's good that Skalde was finally able to get rid of him but there is a lot of politics involved in minor league hockey and in fact Chuck was saddled with such a bad player. Micheal Busto was assigned to the Cyclones by Montreal at the beginning of the 09-10 season. Because of Chuck's success Busto never saw a game with the Cyclones. In fact, Busto was assigned to the Dayton Gems where he didn't impress and was sent packing. Then Elmira gave him a shot and couldn't stick. Eventually Busto was just called to Hamilton where he was put on IR and never saw another game. It could be said that Skalde's inexperience as a coach and lack of success is why DeLory was here so long.
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"PBR can do that to you....1,2,3,12 beers and you're f**ked"
-oscar
"and i don't give a damn 'bout my bad reputation" - joan jett
"beer is proof that god loves us and wants us to be happy." - benjamin franklin
"is that a pulled pork sandwich i smell?"
"some things are just better without pants...."
www.cycwords.wordpress.com |
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Catch22
(Been Here Awhile)
USA
676 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2011 : 10:34:55 PM
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I'll say it one more time...
The ECHL is a development league, and the Cyclones look to be intent on two affiliates. It is a valid point to say that it helps a coach be successful if he can build HIS team, but at this level it's just not going to happen. With two affiliates you can count on about half your bench at any time being ASSIGNED to you. Not your choice.
You can count on having guys you don't want and also count on guys you want to keep being pulled to the A. It's life at this level.
You MUST be able to make the bench you have work in order to be successful. As a coach, your system must match your talent and if it doesn't YOU must adjust. If you have no natural stick handlers and no defensemen that are excellent shooters, then trying to generate offense from the point or with fancy passes to create perfect scoring chances just won't work.
It just won't. You can keep trying, but you'll keep losing.
It's no different from having a team of small, quick guys and trying to play a bruising game in the corners with them. Won't work (and you'll have a pile of injurys as a bonus).
You can argue that some of these guys have been around too long or they aren't working well with the new coach or whatever. And thats a fine and valid argument.
But lets not skip over the fact that the team is playing a different game than before and it's not working very well. If I were solving that problem, thats where I'd start.
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Yes, I grew up playing hockey... In Alabama. |
Edited by - Catch22 on 01/17/2011 10:41:45 PM |
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hrc666
(Loves To Post!)
1363 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 05:12:46 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by elvis77
@HRC, Your time frame with Smith and Mayer is off by a few months, both of them allowed some very large numbers to get hung up on them into the month of January. I would say they both started to get rolling in Feb.
Yes, the players need to be held accountable and there are some that are under performing compared to last season. Let me put it this way though, why was the team able to succeed last season but not this season if not for coaching. Skalde has a very similar lineup, but the style of play is quite a bit different than what Chuck had in place. Chuck had success, and Skalde is getting inconsistent results. Yes, the players have to execute, but if they aren't it's up to coaching to get tweak things. We saw it with Chuck in 08-09 when he took a team to a division title and the conference final with nothing but smoke and mirrors.
Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike Skalde. I like several of the moves he's made (releasing JC Sawyer for one). From conversations, and listening at the Coach's Show it's obvious he's looking for answers. However, it's impossible to deny that the turnover in the coaching staff has had a great effect on the results the team is seeing this season.
As far as DeLory goes, it's good that Skalde was finally able to get rid of him but there is a lot of politics involved in minor league hockey and in fact Chuck was saddled with such a bad player. Micheal Busto was assigned to the Cyclones by Montreal at the beginning of the 09-10 season. Because of Chuck's success Busto never saw a game with the Cyclones. In fact, Busto was assigned to the Dayton Gems where he didn't impress and was sent packing. Then Elmira gave him a shot and couldn't stick. Eventually Busto was just called to Hamilton where he was put on IR and never saw another game. It could be said that Skalde's inexperience as a coach and lack of success is why DeLory was here so long.
http://echl.com/stats/statdisplay.php?type=goalies&subType=3&season_id=13&leagueId=1&lastActive=&singleSeason=&confId=0
I'd say that the goaltending got better earlier than you thought. Click on the game by game stats of each. Mayer had a 1.70 gaa in December last year. Smith had a cumulative 2.45 gaa through November. The goaltending wasn't shaky anywhere near what this season's was at the beginning (actually it wasn't shaky, it was putrid) nor as inconsistent as it is now.
This is not a similar team. Robinson is out. Pierce has never been the same since his injury midway through last year. Now he's out.
Jimmy Kilpatrick and Mark Van Guilder were more potent than any of the current Cyclone forwards-save perhaps for Sproat. Maxime Lacroix or Clackson/Calla? Hmmmm.lol.
Jason Jozsa, Reid Cashman and Brett Motherwell are gone from last year's team on defense. No one can seriously state that their replacements are as good as they were.
The goaltending is not as good.
This team is not near as talented as last year's. Not even close.
The point about Skalde being unable to rid himself of DeLory like Chuck would have allegedly done due to "coaching success" does not seem valid to me.
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Edited by - hrc666 on 01/18/2011 05:57:59 AM |
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elvis77
(Loves To Post!)
1435 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 10:16:57 AM
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@HRC, Don't look at the avg. Go look at it game by game. Into Jan and early Feb both of last years net minders were giving up 4,5,6 even 7 goals per game. Granted they would then have a shut out or 1 goal game. That my friend is called INCONSISTENCY.
You actually help make my argument that it's not goal tending but defense when you through out that Jozsa, Cashman, and Motherwell aren't with the team. That leaves some gaping holes in the D-zone.
Taking the D a step further, Cashman had a cannon of a shot, but both he and Jozsa weren't the most fleet of foot. Motherwell was the only one that would have been capable of playing the type of hockey Skalde has in place. It should be added and taken for what it's worth that Cashman only played 18 regular season games with the Cyclones last season. If Chuck would have had guys like Jozsa and Cashman jumping into the play every rush as every D except Olson seems to be encouraged to do Smith and Mayer would have seen many more odd man rushes which would have no doubt lead to more goals against and more loses. Last years, squad had balance between defenseman that would join the rush but always had a guy stay at home behind the play. It should be noted that Olson, the one dman who regularly "stays at home" leads all dmen with a +7 rating. Go figure.
Last years team was successful because they played solid in front of their net minders. They ground games out because that's how they were built. Chuck got them to be hard to play against as a unit and it was successful. Chuck even got a very questionable team which was backstopped by Ryan Nie to a conference final the previous year by playing a similar style of hockey.
Yes, last years team had more offense power but they didn't win by scoring goals by the truckload. They won by stopping the other team from scoring. Last season's leading scorer was Barret Ehgoetz who ranked 29th in the league. The Cyclones only had 1 player who played more than half the games average more than a point per game and that was Kilpatrick.
Last season's team played a defensive brand of hockey but scored more than this years. It would lead one to think that that if you put these guys into a more offensive system they will succeed. This obviously hasn't been the case. Yes, the players have to be held accountable but so does the coaching staff. Would this team be a couple points better playing under Weber and his more defensive oriented play? You said it yourself they would and right now that's the difference between 2nd in the Division (8th in the Conference) and 1st in the Division (3rd or higher in the Conference).
The politics in affiliated minor league hockey are what they are. Coaches who win get more flexibility than those with average records. |
"PBR can do that to you....1,2,3,12 beers and you're f**ked"
-oscar
"and i don't give a damn 'bout my bad reputation" - joan jett
"beer is proof that god loves us and wants us to be happy." - benjamin franklin
"is that a pulled pork sandwich i smell?"
"some things are just better without pants...."
www.cycwords.wordpress.com |
Edited by - elvis77 on 01/18/2011 10:23:50 AM |
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hrc666
(Loves To Post!)
1363 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 2:00:24 PM
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I guess that "systems" are in the eye of the beholder at times.
To my eyes, I've noticed that most of the defensemen haven't been joining the offensive rush for the past month or so. I'm not seeing guys get caught up ice at the level which I did earlier in the season. I believe that the coaching staff made an adjustment in that area.
I'm all with you on this team has got to be a grinding team to win games. Any team which averages less than 3 goals a game had better rely on defense to win To that end, I haven't seen any systematic problem with forwards not backchecking adequately for the most part.
The recent wins in FLA (3-1,2-1) and vs. WHL and KZO (both 3-2) in our last six games suggests that the team IS playing a sound defensive system.
I'll guess we'll have to agree to disagree (or not). I hold that this season's team isn't as talented as last season and that the goaltending is not as good as last season's was. I also hold that this team would not be much better off under Weber.
I think that it's important to note that last season's team was a #5 seed. Given (in my view) that this team is not as talented as last season's, then a #7 or even a #8 seed would suggest equivalent coaching.
In any case, Skalde's #8 current (out of 11) seed is better than Weber's current seeding based on current standings. Weber's Rochester team is dead last (15 of 15) in its Conference and is tied for 4rth worst (of 30) in the entire AHL. It's not that Chuck doesn't know how to coach anymore; it's a function of talent.
As it is here, IMHO. |
"The only way David Desharnais will see an NHL game is if he buys a ticket".
--donnie hockey
"David Desharnais will be invisible during 5 on 5 hockey. IN THE AHL"
--donnie hockey
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Edited by - hrc666 on 01/18/2011 2:04:26 PM |
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bhf303
(The Next Level!)
198 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2011 : 5:06:35 PM
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Tuesday night was another horrible game and I would say that most fans are blaming Skalde for the poor performance, at least from where I was sitting. Many fans, mostly twenty something, intoxicated males began chanting something negative about Skalde towards the end of the game and then it kind of spread out for a little bit.
We'll see what the Watson trade does, but if you use past stats as a basis for an opinion, that opinion would have to be pessimistic at best. Not the kind of trade that will improve your team really or one that a really good coach would make. I could very well be wrong, Watson could come here and be very productive, or at least cointribute in a positive manner.
Somewhat like Skaldes past performance with Bloomington. It wasnt great, and now those same results are turning up here. I'm not really surprised by that. It is very rare to find a "Bill Bilichick" type coach. Bill did poorly with Cleveland, but look at him now.
I dont know what changes need to be made, but I dont take the Clones organization to be one to be satisfied with this kind of performance. I suppose we'll know in a few short months.
With all that said, GO CLONES!!!!! |
Somersaults, thats how I roll! |
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